Talk:Oberth class/archive
I reverted the following edit due to its extensive removal of apparently proper, cited material from the main article to the background information. I leave it here to be discussed. --From Andoria with Love 20:46, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) :Not cited?!? It is cited with links and pictures, the previous stuff was not cited, not mine... (and I removed nothing, I only added informations...) --Porthos 21:17, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) Er... I never said your info was not cited... but that is a lot of valid info to move into the background section. Also, please do not revert articles while a discussion is still being held here, thank you. --From Andoria with Love 21:23, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) :Who do you think you are? I moved no valid infos, I improved what has been given before. If you don't have any concrete criticism then this is revert vandalism. You have ten minutes to find something or I change it back... --Porthos 21:30, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) Thanks for the warning, now I can protect the page. In the meantime, read the discussion at the bottom of this page. --From Andoria with Love 21:32, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) :That's not the appropriate way. Not I have to defend what I wrote, you have to prove me wrong. As long as you do not have any concrete criticism, this is an irregular revert. --Porthos 21:47, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) :(Take a look at the notes I made at the bottom of the page Porthos, your idea can still be put on your user page.) I know what you feel, as I had something like this happen before. It may take time, but you'll eventually understand why items like this aren't used. - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 21:33, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) The size discussion There is a lot of confusion about the correct measurements of this class because some reference works list it as one constant version with a length around 150 meters. But if the appearances through the movies and series are analyzed it becomes indubitable that there are three different versions of this class. The Tsiolkovsky type The only definite appearance of this type can be observed in TNG: "The Naked Now" where the [[USS Tsiolkovsky|USS Tsiolkovsky]] is towed of by a ''Galaxy'' class starship. Regarding the low range of a tractor beam the Tsiolkovsky is quite close to the Enterprise-D what allows a very precise calculation of her size in comparison with the well known dimensions of a Galaxy class. Working with the proportions of the reused movie model of the Grissom the following data becomes canonical for this ship: * Length: ~265m * Beam: ~150m * Height: ~80m * Decks: 12-13 (without pylons) * Crew: ~80 (mentioned) These dimensions fit perfectly to the given crew complement and the observations of spacious interiors (which were re-dresses of the Enterprise-D and -A sets), leaving enough space for laboratories and other things a science ship is supposed to have. The saucer section will have about four decks. It is unclear if the [[USS Grissom|USS Grissom]] is of the same type, but its spacious bridge (a partial re-dress of the refitted ''Constitution'' class bridge from "Star Trek: The Motion Picture") may indicate this. The Vico type This type is significant smaller than the Tsiolkovsky type, its definite appearance is in TNG: "Hero Worship" where the master systems display of the [[SS Vico|SS Vico]] is visible in the background clearly showing two decks within the saucer section. Fortunately this allows also a precise calculation: * Length: ~115m * Beam: ~60m * Height: ~35m * Decks: 8 (13 with pylons) A ship of this size would have a far smaller crew complement, likely less than 50. Its role is unclear, but if it is a science ship type its research capacities will be limited due to the limited space. The Cochrane type in relation to its' Nebula and ''Miranda'' class counterparts]] This type is another curiosity that appeared in "Star Trek: Generations" during the last scene of the movie. In this case, the size comparison is more difficult, but the unnamed Oberth class (maybe the [[USS Valiant|USS Valiant]]) can be seen in comparison to a ''Miranda'' class cruiser and a ''Nebula'' class starship. Especially the latter dwarfs the Oberth to dimensions of a runabout. Regarding this scene it is indubitable that this type does not come close to the size of the Vico type. In comparison to the definitely known size of the Nebula class (length: 442 meters) this ship is not longer than 50m, wider than 28m and higher than 15m. The saucer section will have a diameter of only around 12m and one deck. This makes it nearly impossible that it can be classified as a full science ship, more likely is the role of a transport or a surveyor. The former is supported by the appearance of the [[USS Cochrane|USS Cochrane]] in DS9: "Emissary" which transports personnel to the outpost Deep Space 9. The Cochrane appears also to be quite small compared to the huge space station. Conclusion It is unfortunate that the special effects for the series and the movies were produced by different companies so that the size of this class changed at least three times. On the other hand, this is nothing new inside the Trek-universe considering the fact that Starfleet is known for re-using its designs in different dimensions. ::To further explain why the 'Size discussion' item was removed. A majority of this information is speculation based on visual fact. I did this exact same thing in Nova class (But mainly with interior sets and the model), which caused a major discussion. Speculation like the size comparison is best left to Background Information (But in a smaller, summarized state). Also, if you look at other articles for starships, you'll notice that items like 'size comparison' aren't used (See Excelsior class, an excellent starship article). The Lakota variant is mentioned, but it's merged into the article and not 'standing out', like the above article. It doesn't also include 'extensive' analysis based on speculation. Hope this helps ;) - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 21:24, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) Thank you, Enzo. My apologies for not discussing things more clearly, but I am not in the best physical (and as a result, mental) health at the moment. :( --From Andoria with Love 21:27, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) :::No problem, glad to have helped (Hope you get well soon though!). Additionally, Porthos, your notes are quite intriguing. If you feel like doing so, you are more than welcome to put your ideas into your user page where personal opinion is welcome ;) - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 21:30, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) Thanks again. I will try. :) --From Andoria with Love 22:11, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) :There is no speculation. All of this is clearly visible on screen and this "problem" (if you call it so) of the Oberth is well known, I just wrote it down. And I put it as short as possible (without being imprecise) at the background section as you suggested. That there is no such comparison at Excelsior class is caused by the simple fact that there are no such "problems" with that class. If there were there would have to be such a section, without it it wouldn't be a FA. Find a mistake in what I wrote and we can talk, but I can't take this answer as serious. (Btw: this text is part of the German article for months and nobody there complained, even our "expert" {an admin btw.} for this found no mistake) --Porthos 21:42, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) Porthos, you need keep your attitude in check. The purpose of this talk page is to discuss your opinion in a cool, collected manner, not to blatantly label the other opinions as wrong. Please remember this when commenting in the future. --From Andoria with Love 21:49, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC) * The model that was designed for ST3 and the official specifications that were released for it at the time of the movie, as well as later specifications that Probert released around the 1st season of TNG (which corrolated with the original specs) give the overall length of the Grissom to be 395 feet (or 120m), which is actually what should be on the page, as those were the "official" specs. Any comparison outside of that range should simply be noted as an fx error and left in the background information-- because yes, there have been some errors in sizing, notably between the Galaxy and Oberth, but also between the Galaxy and the Constellation, Klingon BoP, and D'Deridex. Unless someone actually made a conscious effort on screen or off to note that there are multiple sized designs for the Oberth class, we shouldn't assume that there are-- and from what I am reading above, there is a lot of assuming there. Otherwise, I really don't see how making the background section of the Oberth class larger than the main as an efficient use of information. It would, however, be beneficial if we linked the page to the ex-astris-scientia article for further readings on the subject, rather than rehashing it when the work has already been done for us. Above all, numbers are concrete, fx errors fluctuate. Keep that in mind. --Alan del Beccio 01:19, 24 Dec 2005 (UTC) *Agreed, Ex-Astris-Scientia has some excellent discussions on starship size conflicts. Instead of having a huge article in the Background Information, the Oberth article should be linked instead. - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 14:12, 24 Dec 2005 (UTC) :That's exactly what I want to avoid. This has to be analysed here, not somewhere outside. If we start this, we can say "hey, why creating articles, someone wrote it somewhere (e.g. Wikipedia) down, just make an external link". That's not the purpose of MA. Concerning screen evidence: if we just ignore what we see on screen, a lot of things (facts) can be changed because someone says "hey, that's just a mistake". If someone of the production staff says "the Klingon BoP is 200m long" because he mistook something that has been said from another prod. guy, we change the article to this? Ignoring the fact that we clearly saw two different models, the 110m and the 300+ m (but never a 200m)? No, we don't. We write down what we see on screen, as long as it is explainable (from inside the universe). That's what I did. Show me that you can do it better. --Porthos 23:17, 24 Dec 2005 (UTC) :: We already did. There is only ONE size Oberth-- no factual dialog or diagrams or background information exists to prove otherwise. The EXACT SAME MODEL from square one was used to the bitter end, a model that was specifically defined as being 120 meters in length. We are not here to critique to competence of the FX editors-- THAT is not the purpose of MA -- we are here to support what is described as canon. --Alan del Beccio 06:29, 25 Dec 2005 (UTC) :::There's also no dialog that says that there are two versions of the Klingon BOP (with obvious differences in dimensions), but we have this and this as screen evidence (the same models too). It's exactly the same like this and this. Up to now, you have no counter-evidence from the in-universe perspective. And as long as you don't find this, I have the right to add this. --Porthos 18:10, 25 Dec 2005 (UTC) :::: We don't need to find any reasoning against including speculation. If they did not mention something about the class, then there is no reason we should include the information. Which is what you are attempting to do. Therefore, the same answer applies as before-- 'We are not here to critique to competence of the FX editors-- THAT is not the purpose of MA -- we are here to support what is described as canon...' nor create speculation from their errors. For that very reason we no longer have "nitpicks" in episode pages or their background-- because we are not here to critique the writers. --Alan del Beccio 02:18, 26 Dec 2005 (UTC) Ok, lets clear a more simple question first: the perspective. Normally, we write the main text from inside the Trek universe, but the background stuff from the Meta-Trek (our) universe. What has happened here is that both collides: we have, like Porthos said, the same case like with B'rel and K'Vort, but we do not know if maybe the different persons that were responsible for the different appearances really wanted what we see or if it is just some misunderstanding (the series had other FX artists than ST3 and ST3 had because of the timespan other ones than ST7). In case of the BoPs we know it was intended to be so, so the on-canon perspective fits. In this case we don't know what was intended (or only for ST3), so if it is treated like maybe-canon and dealt with in the background section it will give the readers all informations they need. The EAS link will be a good supplement to this. So finally, we have to clear the question how this should be written for the background section, this is the problem that should be solved now. @Gvsualan: Don't mix up nitpicks and observations. If we write a note about the fact that Picard has a bald head on the academy picture from Nemesis, but not in his memories in Tapestry, this is an observation. If we say this is an error, it becomes a nitpick. And to add observations about possible contradictory info as background (footnotes) is accepted here. The rest read above. --Memory 22:57, 26 Dec 2005 (UTC)